Episode with guests: Jack Stack and Brandon Lockhart
SRC Holdings and The Great Game of Business
(This episode was recorded in January of 2022.)
Key Episode Take-Aways: Show Notes
1. Using competition as a tool to keep learning, keep understanding, to keep growing to see the benefits competition can provide. (click to jump to this topic below) So, I kind of keep going around the horn saying it, how do have competition without anybody getting hurt? Alright, so how do you take the bright side of capitalism, bright side competition in order to get to the point where everybody can significantly benefit as a result? So, I look at it as a tool. I mean, I do look at it as a tool to keep learning, to keep understanding, to keep growing to see what it is to be able to provide something better.
2. Everyone enjoys winning but some of our greatest lessons come from losing. (click to jump to this topic below) I'll take it, I was always a big believer of you win, or you learn. Even in losses, I mean, those are some of your greatest lessons come from. When you win, you kind of sweep things under the rug, maybe and don't really look and take a deeper look at what you really need to fix. When you lose you, you notice all the things that things start to stand out more on what you can change to improve things.
3. If you're going to win in business, you need to have a team aligned with the same goal. The Great Game of Business practices and principles can help strengthen your team. (click to jump to this topic below) So, when we talk about competition here, we're sitting there trying to figure out a how to celebrate wins, how to feel good that you're moving in the right direction, okay? And most importantly, are we moving in a direction give people what they want their dreams, their aspirations, okay. Too many people sit on the sidelines and say, well, that's your job, man. It's not my job, man, I don't care, or just give me my responsibilities. I'll take care of what I really need to do. And they don't even consider the whole fact is that, collectively as a team, you can achieve so much easier what it is, instead of having conflicts and confrontations and arguments inside of an organization, because if you're going to win in business, you gotta have a team.
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Welcome to the "Change The Game" Podcast, where we share stories of open-book management and highlight capitalism at its best. Thank you for tuning into this episode of the “Change The Game” Podcast with special guests Jack Stack and Brandon Lockhart. In this episode Rich Armstrong highlights the baby boomer vs millennial perspective on what is competition, teaching people how to win, and how do we handle the loss.
Rich Armstrong 1:10
Welcome to the "Change the Game" Podcast where we are changing The Game by doing business differently and highlighting stories of capitalism at its best. We believe businesses have the potential to make positive difference in the world. They can empower people to pursue their dreams and benefit our society as a whole. I am Rich Armstrong and I will be solo your solo hosts today. My colleague and co-host Steve Baker is stuck in the air on a delayed flight somewhere over the Rocky Mountains right now. So, I'll be going solo but I'm very excited about this podcast because I got two. I'm excited about the topic as well as our two guests, because I'm sure they'll help me make this hosting thing a breeze. So first, we welcome back Jack Stack founder and CEO of SRC holdings Corporation, as well as a full time CEO. He is a prolific business author, who in addition to writing the book, The Great Game of Business, has also written a Stake in the Outcome. And his latest book, Change the Game: Saving the American Dream By Closing The Gap Between The Haves And The Have-Nots, along with his co-author Darren Dahl. Jack, how are you?
Jack Stack 2:18
I'm doing great, Rich. It's really exciting to be here. I think it's a great topic. And I think you get great panelists for me to be able to learn from.
Rich Armstrong 2:27
Great, great. I'm looking forward to it too. And thanks for joining us again. And with that our second guest is one of our very own Brandon Lockhart. Brandon is the Marketing Project Coordinator here at the Great Game of Business. But prior to joining our team, Brandon played professional basketball in different European leagues. As a former leader and a standout player for the Drury University Panthers basketball team, Brandon led his team to the NCAA Division II national title and was recently inducted into the school's Hall of Fame. So, congratulations, Brandon, and how are you?
Brandon Lockhart 3:03
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Rich. Hello, Jack. Hope you're doing well.
Jack Stack 3:08
Hope I’m well to, in today's world you don't know if you're well or not.
Brandon Lockhart 3:16
Rich Armstrong 3:17
Well, this should be fun. Again, as I mentioned, I'm really excited about the topic as well as these two guests because different perspectives we can have. The topic of today's podcast was first introduced in a blog post last year written by Jack Stack and Darren Dahl titled In Defense of Competition. And we couldn't think of any more to propriate guests for a deeper dive into the topic of competition than Jack and Brandon, a Baby Boomer and a millennial perspective on competition, someone that is lived competition in business, and somebody that has recently live competition in sports and how those things may fit together and really dive into this whole concept of competition in today's society. So, Jack, for those listeners who may not have read the blog, can you share the story behind the inspiration that led to that article?
Jack Stack 4:19
Well, probably like most of my blogs, you know, I've probably been overrun by social media or media or political regulations or something of that nature, because that is basically the lane that we're in. We're business people. So, we're constantly trying to figure out how to get as much information as we possibly can to make the right decisions going forward. And sometimes in our search to learn more. It's very, very confusing at times in terms of trying to determine where we're at. And I think when we wrote the blog at that particular point in time, we're feeling kind of low because there was this I guess, for lack of a better word there. Was this progressiveness that was really going on, you know, trying to provide an alternative view to competition. And there was also several, I thought interesting comedies at that time, you know, where they talked about in the blog that the kids today, when they play, they don't necessarily keep score. And, you know, everyone gets a trophy, there are no differentiation in terms of winning or losing. And, and I was really trying to figure out was that right or am I wrong? Or, you know, I'm from the old school relative to competition. And, you know, it just started to come out in terms of trying to say, what is competition all about? I mean, is it good? Is it bad? what does it do? What, what is the motivation behind it? What are the outcomes behind it? And so we just sat down, and we tried to give our perspective that it could be a good thing, you know, yeah, it does have some tendencies to be able to have losers, you know, but at the same time, I've lost a lot of things in my entire life, that everything that I've lost, I've learned something from, you know I and then I get really confused in terms of what are people talking about when they're saying level the playing field, you know, what we really need is perfect competition, just not competition, where there's a winner or loser, where there's almost a tie at everything. So, I was getting confused, I thought maybe I should write this blog to try to figure out what my point is, and why I view competition as being positive things done under positive circumstances and positive events. So that was what created the blog, and I'm sure that a lot of people are going through at that time. The whole idea of socialism, capitalism, Marxism, you know, quality and equality, and we're trying to make all these kinds of decisions in terms of how do we use? How do we use the things that we have in a beneficial way that takes care of everybody at the same time. So that was the purpose of the article?
Rich Armstrong 7:12
Well, I'm gonna give the, the audience a little bit of behind the scenes look of the producing of this podcast when we ask Jack to talk a bit more about this blog, because we think it's very, very relevant. He's the one that suggested that we bring in somebody like Brandon, to have that different perspective, right. And I think it's a, it's a great idea, because you come from a different and you also maybe grew up in this environment that Jack just talked about, right, where everybody's getting a trophy, and there's maybe not some scoring and stuff. I'm curious about what your definition is branded of competition and how Jack was describing that earlier.
Brandon Lockhart 7:55
You know, when I think of competition, I think of just a challenge, really. How do you get through certain challenges that you're faced with, and I don't think competition is a bad thing for anything. I really think competition really brings out the best of each individual or team organization. I think it's key for growth, and I don't think we need to do away with it. Competition is, just goes back to a challenge to me, that's how I would describe it.
Rich Armstrong 8:23
What do you think, Jack? How would you define it?
Jack Stack 8:26
I'm confused. I totally agree with what Brandon I mean, just seems like there's over time, I've seen the benefits of it. Okay, I don't know how I can change the way the things that I've learned the things that I've seen as a result of competition. I've seen improvements, I've seen growth, you know, I've seen celebrations I see wins, I see. You know, people feeling good about themselves. I think I see people getting better about themselves. I think the whole idea of competition is allowing people to understand what it takes to win, you know, and I think that we are obsessed with learning through benchmarking, alright, and I don't think you if you're not competitive, you're don't really concern about the benchmarks. You're not concerned about the benchmarks on what you need to do in order to get better. You know, I think you're gonna play for the tie you played for the tie, I think your ability to succeed is very limited.
1. Using competition as a tool to keep learning, keep understanding, to keep growing to see the benefits competition can provide.
So, I kind of keep going around the horn saying it, how do have competition without anybody getting hurt? Alright, so how do you take the bright side of capitalism, bright side competition in order to get to the point where everybody can significantly benefit as a result? So, I look at it as a tool. I mean, I do look at it as a tool to keep learning, to keep understanding, to keep growing to see what it is to be able to provide something better. I don't look at the, yeah, I feel sorry about the dark sides. Okay, but it doesn't have to be, you know that destructive. And I keep coming back to the story about why don't we just teach everybody how winners win, you know, I mean if you really are jealous or if you don't want to compete or things of this nature, God bless you, I think there's tremendous things that you can but don't kind of hamper those people that are not satisfied with the way things are done and want to be motivated in order to be able to accomplish a task finished a goal, grab a brass ring, you know, I just say gave a lot of hope in terms of the bright sides of competition.
Rich Armstrong 10:42
Jack, you talk about, you know, others may look at competition a little differently. You I've heard you use the term perfect competition can you tell me a little bit of what do you how do you define that? Or is there such thing as perfect competition?
Jack Stack 10:58
Economic theory that comes out of the east. And it's a very intelligent one. It's about all these academics are getting around trying to say and what if we had perfect competition; that all products are the same, all prices are the same, all costs are the same. It was easy to enter into the business, they had rational buyers, they, you know, had mobile resources and other regulations were the same for everybody else, you know, that's what they think we should be striving for. I think they use an example of a farmers market, you know, where everybody can go and produce their goods at the same level of production, that they can price it at the same level of pricing, they can all deliver it to the market without the same regulatory kind of situations where basically that would be the definition of what a perfect competition is okay, that throw in, in fact, be no losers. And, you know, everybody would tie.
Rich Armstrong 11:57
Which What's your thoughts on that? Brandon? I mean, I don't want to pigeonhole a generation. I think everybody's a little different that but is that relevant at all, is that resonate with you at all? Or is that something coming from your peers at all?
Brandon Lockhart 12:12
To a certain extent, I would say yes. But I just think, more along the lines of everybody having a chance to take part in the competition, not so much everything being equal, equal price equal this, I think everybody just given a chance to compete. I don't think my generation is going away from wanting to be a part of competitions, I think we are seeking competition, I just think we want it in different ways. We want everybody to have a chance to succeed, and just start at a level playing field. And where if it goes where it goes from there is a different story.
Rich Armstrong 12:51
Now, that's good. I like that. I mean, you're really just talking about giving people that opportunity, that initial opportunity. But in terms of the competition, layout, the framework is still the same, right?
Brandon Lockhart 13:07
Yeah, I agree with Jack, there. I don't think we can get to perfect competition. I don't think we; I don’t think that's something that we were built for. And that's not what we want. We just want everybody to have a chance to take part in the competition.
Rich Armstrong 13:20
So let me ask you this --
Jack Stack 13:21
I think the horse is way out of the barn in terms of trying to, you know, change our I think, fundamentally, our culture's paced competition. Okay, I think that it's been there for such a long period of time. The idea is, I think, you know, it was when we really tried to do business here is that man, let's just tell everybody what the rules are. Okay, let's just get everybody on the same song sheet. Let's everybody playing by the same scorecard, and then lets everybody have a stake in the outcome when there's a victory, okay. And I know, that's an oversimplification of what a game is, okay. But game playing nation. I mean, we need a drive to learn more, you know, we need to be driven to be more educated. Okay. I mean, I definitely think when you get into a game, when you get into competition, I mean, what are you doing, you're seeking out the right things to do the best things to do. You know, and, you know, in the cases, like, what we tried to do that benefits a large broad audience of people that were willing to participate, you know, in order to make something better, okay, I don't know of another technique that can build a team.
Rich Armstrong 14:36
Let me play the devil's advocate just a bit here. What’s that? [Laughter]
Jack Stack 14:44
Brandon can handle that one.
Rich Armstrong 14:47
What's the unintended consequences if you are you're driving this hyper competitive culture, hyper competitive environment?
Brandon Lockhart 14:57
Um, I think. It comes down to, is it healthy competition or not? You don't want. And I think a good thing that the Great Game of Business does is we don't pit each other against each other. And that helps us avoid the unintended consequences of, if somebody wants to succeed, they're not going to put somebody down just so they can succeed. We all try to strive for the same thing, same goal and try to grow as a team, whereas we're not really against each other. So that really takes the unintended consequences away, I would say.
Rich Armstrong 15:34
You know, just to add to that, just a little bit, Brandon, you mentioned that as being something you've seen within the Great Game of Business and businesses you've worked with, since you've been here. Does that parallel with your experience in sports?
Brandon Lockhart 15:52
Uh every team's different, I can't, I don't know if I can speak to one thing that comes to mind, I just know that if competition is unhealthy, you will have people against each other, like you won't have people, you won't try to help others succeed. It's all focused on yourself. And in business and life, anything that you're doing with a team, you can't be against your own teammates, or you're never, you’re just gonna go down.
Rich Armstrong 16:18
Very good point. Jack, what do you think?
Jack Stack 16:21
I totally agree with the I balances. It's all about balance, right? I mean, it's just, you're gonna have great winners, you're gonna have people are going to be doing everything they can to catch up, but you need everybody, you know, we've seen it so many. So often, when you're building a team, okay, can't rest on the back of one person, it has to be the participation of everybody that's in the event. And I do think the collateral damages is ours, that we often take losing and we turn it into a hatred, you know, an anger. Let's go after these banks, because they're ripping everybody off. Okay, what the banks are trying to do is compete in the free market, you know, the people have the ability to go somewhere else. But there are some people that have gained from it or some people lose from it. So, the people that lose from it, you know, the you get the media you get the politicians you get the government ganging up, I'm trying to protect the losers and kind of the collateral damages is that people don't think this thing all the way through, alright. And they don't use it as a learning experience to be able to teach people the right way of doing something, they turn it into something vitriol and they turn it something into an anger and hatred, you know, instead of going out there and fixing it, that's what I think that real good competitors do is that they're, you know, they're not really totally satisfied with the fact of even if they win, I mean, but there's totally satisfied with is that they're continually improving. And I think if you ever lose the desire to compete, and I think that's a, it's a sad day.
Rich Armstrong 18:05
That’s a good point. And I, you know, talking about, you know, the winning and losing, and you, you mentioned this in your article about, you know, the everybody's a winner, and there's no outs and the fact that you're not keeping score, but we all know that our kids are keeping score on the on the side, right. But there's this idea that everybody needs to win, because that's when they feel special. That's when they feel appreciated. But isn't there a lot to learn from losing? Right? And feeling, you know, the, the agony of defeat as they talk about? What are some of those lessons? I mean, what's your thoughts on them? What would some of those lessons be? Brandon, Jack,
2. Everyone enjoys winning, but some of our greatest lessons come from losing.
Brandon Lockhart 18:50
I'll take it, I was always a big believer of you win, or you learn. Even in losses, I mean, those are some of your greatest lessons come from. When you win, you kind of sweep things under the rug, maybe and don't really look and take a deeper look at what you really need to fix. When you lose you, you notice all the things that things start to stand out more on what you can change to improve things. And when I knew Jack was a competitor after just reading the origin story of this, of how he got turned down from all those banks, but that didn't stop him. I mean, that he learned what he needed to get done to make this happen. And I think that if he just wanted to give up back then not compete. We wouldn't be here probably by No, Jack's a competitor, he might be doing something else. I mean, he took those lessons that he learned and made all this happen.
Jack Stack 19:46
When you're talking like that, it's nice to hear what you say okay, but the first thing that came to my mind when you're talking about that story was the fact is we didn't mind a fail. Okay. You know, that's maybe something that we don't we haven't talked about yet. When we talk about competition, you know, is you do what do you get perseverance? Okay? Where do you get the strength to be able to come back when you lose? Okay? when you develop a tenacity when you develop the understanding, you know, I mean, I'm in the worst sport you can ever be in a game in bass fishing, okay. And nobody understands bass fishing, and there's a million things you got to understand about fishing, you know, it's you against the brain of a pea. Right? And It beats you. I mean, and you, I mean, I have been working on this for 30 years, you know, I'd love to compete. Because my best moments are, as I'm driving home, from the tournament, is to be able to just kick myself in the ass and all the things that I missed all the things that I didn't do, right, all the things I could have done better. You know, I mean, I do think that losing gives you a sense of humility, okay. And there's a real positive side of competition, okay. It's the whole idea of it humbles you. You know, I mean, you don't have to like it, okay, but you really good. If you take it from a perspective of learning something good from it, it gets you better the next time, It get you more prepared it gets you more focused, okay? You look at more variables, you want it, you're more hungry to understand what it takes to win. And it's an activity of life. You know, I mean, to me, it's just a, it's a progression, that you really want to be able to teach everybody to continually work hard, and getting better, not necessarily at the expense of the fish.
Rich Armstrong 21:46
You know, we may have some CEOs or owners on the listening to this right now and say, Well, you know, this makes sense when you got two hyper competitive guys that are talking about competition and the benefits of competition, but not everybody's competitive. I'm curious, do you think that competitiveness is born? Or can it be bred can be taught? Can you build a team to get them to be more competitive?
Jack Stack 22:13
Toss that one to Brandon, because we've talked about that before the podcast, this is the one that's most impossible to answer. Go ahead, Brandon.
Brandon Lockhart 22:24
This is a tough one, I think. I think it's a combination of both. And yes, it can be taught. But if I had to pick one, I think I lean towards born. You know from very early on; we're taught that winning is a good thing. And to try hard at everything we do. Throughout our development, and different life situations, this sort of competitive spirit develops, but it does not always show itself. But for the people I considered to be born with the competitive spirit. It doesn't take development. It's already there and will always be there. They like less of an on off switch. If there's a chance to win at sports, business, what have you. They're competing, it's just who they are.
Jack Stack 23:17
I think and Brandon and I talked, I think there are people are born with talent, you know, born with skills that other people don't have, okay. But how that talent is developed and how skills are developed? I really think it's taught. And I really think that summer in your growth periods, right. you tasted what it was all about, you know, you experience what it was all about. You were in the environment that or you almost liked what it was all upon, you know, whether it could have been in little league or it could have been in you know, in basketball camp, it could have been a hero, you know, that taught you the, you know, the attributes in order that you really are required to succeed. Okay. I don't think that I have the talent when I was growing up, even though my dad was a professional baseball player to fill his shoes. He was unbelievably competitive. Okay, so I would have to say but raised in that kind of an environment. Okay, I was taught, I was trained. I lived in a very competitive, we didn't do anything in our house that didn't have competition. So, I would have to tell you that I was not born with it, but I was probably trained in it.
Brandon Lockhart 24:39
Yeah, I think we all have that innate nature to win. Like we all want to win. But I think where it really gets down to it is who hates to lose? That is a huge thing for competition. Everybody likes to win, but do you hate losing more Do you like winning? And I think that's a huge fundamental thing in our development, as well as We're going through different things in life. How do you handle the losses? What do you do to change?
Jack Stack 25:06
Yeah, but also, you're right, that also, it teaches you how to win too Okay. In other words, when I was playing baseball, I didn't have the attention span, I didn't have the desire, I didn't have the like, in terms of baseball itself. So, my father tried to train me a different way. You know, he tried to teach me what the game was, in the hopes that I then could fill the needs inside of the game. I mean there's an ability to be able to see a field and there's their ability to play in a field, okay. I mean, when my father taught me how to be bad baseball, he was more inclined to use the phrases, you know, like, why don't you hit the ball or the person isn't, you know, or, you know, if you go left-handed your step and a half closer to first base, okay? My teachings were not only to try to exist within the sport itself, but to be able to think outside the sport, to be able to look at it different in a whole more wholesome point of view, right? Then you know learn the system, learn the game, okay, you'll play the game well, and I think that was something that definitely made a huge influence in my business life. Right. Because as you go through work, you're gonna be put in so many situations where you don't know anything about what's really going on. But if you can figure out the system, okay, if you figure out how the game is being played, you've got such an easier methodology to succeed, you can go back and apply your talent, you can go back and your skill sets, if you know the rules of the game, and you understand the host of the other contests that you're in. And that's where the Great Game is about, I mean, a Great Game is about is to appeal to a higher level of thinking with people, and then be able to react upon it.
Rich Armstrong 27:06
I think everybody can really resonate to what you guys are saying I think both of you're saying reframing the idea of you know, losing to continuous improvement, right. It's, it's, everybody wants to I love how you said that Brandon is saying, Look, if you're looking at, you know, Do you really hate to lose, and maybe not as much as the competition, you hate to lose, because, you know there's opportunities there for you to improve. And I think anybody can resonate with that, reframing it that way. It's very, very interesting. I just would say that to Jack being within SRC environment over the last 32 years. I think environment plays a lot in buildings and competitiveness in you. But it's the right kind of competitiveness, right? I've seen it in individuals that they've gotten more competitive, but they've looked at it more in just trying to find ways to win, right. And so, I don't think it's a bad thing, thing. But I think there's a lot to the to the environment, as you guys talked about, that creates that competitiveness in you. So, what we always like to end these podcast with, to really kind of a catch all, make sure we're not missing anything. So, what questions should we be asking you to about competition? What are we missing? What question do we miss?
Jack Stack 28:28
Brandon Lockhart 28:29
No, I was just gonna say you let me go first on all the rest of them. I'll let you go first on this one.
Jack Stack 28:33
You know, I think there should be a discussion in regard to achievement. Okay. I don't think a lot of people believe they could be anything they really want to be. You know, I think those were some of the some of the things we were taught in the past. You know, I mean, whether it's family, whether it's preachers, whether it's teachers, you know, I mean, there was a period of time where I think that if you set a goal to it, if you set your mind to it, you could basically achieve it. I think there's too much in the way of not really kind of promoting those kinds of optimistic messages with, you know, at least a reasonable explanation about how you can reach your goal, how you can achieve it, you know. Like, in The Great Game of Business, we want everybody to get as much money as they possibly can, we want to see the weight is increasing, okay. But you can't do it without understanding what you got to do in business to achieve it. I mean, if you're going to have the best margins, if you're going to have the best products, okay, if you're going to have the best in terms of its industry, and you can get the best contributions of for the goods and the services that you have. You know, that's a methodology that few people understand that they need to be able to institute in order to be able to win compete and get what it is they want. Okay.
3. If you're going to win in business, you need to have a team aligned with the same goal. The Great Game of Business practices and principles can help strengthen your team.
So, when we talk about competition here, we're sitting there trying to figure out a how to celebrate wins, how to feel good that you're moving in the right direction, okay? And most importantly, are we moving in a direction give people what they want their dreams, their aspirations, okay. Too many people sit on the sidelines and say, well, that's your job, man. It's not my job, man, I don't care, or just give me my responsibilities. I'll take care of what I really need to do. And they don't even consider the whole fact is that, collectively as a team, you can achieve so much easier what it is, instead of having conflicts and confrontations and arguments inside of an organization, because if you're going to win in business, you gotta have a team. All right, they all got to be thinking alike. They all got to have the same scorecards the same playing sheets to know what it is. And they really feel it when they're able to attain it. But more importantly, attainment achievement, is really what competition is all about. So, there Brandon, and now you're struck.
Brandon Lockhart 30:53
Now mine for that, my answer for that question would be, would be two questions. One would be, personally for myself, would be do I have any more questions for Jack? And I mean, someone with a wealth of knowledge and experience, I have tons of questions, but I mean that's fine for a later time. On the subject of competition, it would be how do we use competition to make our business better if we're, if we’re in our companies? And I think the answer would be the Great Game of Business, just because we promote teamwork, all playing on the same field. Achieve, trying to achieve the same goal. And that's what we do here at the Great Game is, we get everybody going in the same direction and know we're trying to go for. And I think that's just a wonderful thing.
Rich Armstrong 31:41
I think that's a great way to kind of wrap this thing up. I think you're aligning perfectly. And I didn't see much difference between the millennial and the baby boomers perspective on competition here, it felt like there was a little bit a lot of alignment.
Brandon Lockhart 31:56
We both we both like to compete. I know I like to compete. And I've heard stories of Jack being a high competitor himself. So, you have two competitors here for sure. [Laughter]
Jack Stack 32:10
That’s for sure! Again, I think it's important that a 73 year old like myself doesn't spout off and, you know, have the opportunity to sit on a podcast and not really able to be able to bring forth the next generation of leadership, to hear what they have to say in order to be able to determine how they look at it and the challenges that they have in terms of the future because what I'm really afraid of is that we may be leaving them some significant challenges. Okay, as we exit the business world, and we enter into the baby boomer world of the 2030s. All right, and, you know, they're gonna, I never want them to look back at us and sit there and say, man, thanks, I'm glad you screwed up. We're doing the best we possibly can delegate it down to those guys and say, Okay, you had a play in this as well. But positively speaking, you know, we're pretty excited about the results that we get, it's a result of trying to play the game, okay, trying to grow the wealth of the company and distributed back as equal as we possibly can. We can do it and as fairly as we possibly can do it. And that's what I think is the concept of employee ownership, you know, that everybody works, everybody wins, everybody divides it up, and we roll it over again. So, it's great to be in an interview. It's great to hear, you know, it's a great for hearing to Brandon here and Brandon, knowing fully well that, you know, it's all of us want to make a difference, right? It's all given us the opportunity give us a game by which we all can exceed like an aspire, alright. It'll pay dividends. And maybe we'll take it from work and take it home, you take it to your family, take it to your kids, and you build a better world. That's what it's all about. And you will
Brandon Lockhart 33:54
I agree, that is all the Next Generation wants is just give us a chance. I mean, we were going to compete no matter what. So just throw it at us and we'll figure out how to get it done.
Jack Stack 34:07
I love you guys for it.
Rich Armstrong 34:11
Well, if there's more people like Brandon out there, Jack, I think they're ready. Give it to us. Give us the challenge. We'll take it head on. So that's pretty exciting. Pretty exciting. Well, hey, it was great to have both of you on the podcast. Thank you, Jack. Thank you, Brandon.
Jack Stack 34:26
Thank you for the invitation, Brandon for participating.
Brandon Lockhart 34:29
Oh, thanks for having me. Even though you sent the invitation back to me.
Jack Stack 34:38
You're actually, you’re an inspiration. Kind of figured we may be on the same song sheet too.
Brandon Lockhart 34:46
Oh, yeah. Definitely.
Steve Baker 34:51
Hey, everybody, it's Steve Baker. I just had a chance to listen to the podcast and wanted to do my typical kind of end of podcast wrap up here's what I heard. When Rich asked about what was competition all about Jack discussed the idea that competition is a good thing. Every time he's lost. He's learned something. Brandon said competition is a good thing. It's always a challenge. It brings out the best in people and organizations, it's the key to growth for people. Jack added that competition is a tool to provide something to accomplish a task to achieve a goal. Why don't we just teach everyone how winners win? I love that don't play for the tie. Rich had a question about the economic concept of perfect competition. And the example was like a farmers market where there's no monopolies no losers, everyone would tie. Brandon said everyone should have a chance to compete to start on a level playing field. But we weren't built for perfect competitions with no winners or losers. And Jack added that we're a game playing nation. Let's just tell everyone what the rules are and see what happens. We need to be driven to learn more to improve. And that competition also builds teams and makes things better for everyone. Rich asked, What are some of the unintended consequences of competition, which I thought was a really great question. And Brandon said, you know, let's make sure it's not unhealthy competition. We don't want to pit one another against each other. We don't win at someone else's expense. If competition is unhealthy, you're playing only for yourself, not for your team. And Jack said, it's all about balance. You need everyone. You really need everyone if you're going to win. And in today's world, a lot of times we turn losing into anger and hate, you know, towards anything groups of people, banks, politicians, even the government, why not turn losing into learning, good competitors are never really satisfied with winning, they're satisfied that they're continuously improving. And he also added something I think is a big takeaway. The day you lose your desire to compete is a pretty sad day. Rich asked what we can learn from losing or as he put it, the agony of defeat. Brandon said you win or you learn. When you lose, you see clearly what you need to do to improve. Sometimes if we win all the time, we may sweep some of those things under the rug. Losing can be valuable. And Jack said is where we get perseverance and tenacity. And his example was fishing for 30 years competing with an animal with a size of the with a brain the size of a pea. That was really said it's about working at getting better not necessarily winning at the expense of the fish. Rich asked his competitive spirit born or bred is it nature or nurture? And Brandon said everybody's born competitive. He felt like it can be taught and nurtured. Some may be born more competitive, but we all want to win. We all like to win. Some people just really hate to lose. Jack said that people are born with talent. And it's how the talent is developed that matters. He was taught and trained in a very competitive household. His father taught him how the game worked itself, sort of like why not hit the ball where the other play player isn't. In work, he said, if you can figure out how the game is played, you'll go much further. He added that few people really understand what they need to do to win in business. If you're going to win, you have to have a team. He said attainment and achievement is really what competition is all about. Because when everybody learns everybody works, everybody wins. That's a better world. And what a great combination of people Brandon Lockhart and Jack Stack, and what a great way to end up and how to make a better world through competition. So, let's keep the conversation going. Send us your questions, your stories, your best practices, your ideas, your challenges and your victories. That is capitalism at its best. Thanks for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
The "Change the Game" Podcast is produced by the Great Game of Business. To learn more, visit greatgame.com