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Podcast Transcript

Loren Feldman:
Welcome Jay, and especially Jennifer. It’s great to have you here for your very first 21 Hats podcast episode, Jennifer. Thanks for joining us.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, thanks for the invitation. I’m thrilled to be here.

Loren Feldman:
So to get started, tell us about SB Expos and Events. What do you guys do?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Sure. We are a comprehensive trade show sales and convention management company for associations. We only work with associations on their conventions and trade shows.

Loren Feldman:
Give us a little more idea of what exactly you do for them. What does event management mean for you? And how do you get paid?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, absolutely. That was my basic elevator speech in 10 seconds or less. So I’ll explain.

Loren Feldman:
Well done.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Thank you. So probably all of your listeners have been to a convention or trade show sometime, right? And there are all sorts of ones out there. The ones that we work with are run by associations, either professional membership or trade associations, where they have a trade show or convention throughout the year. The difference, for your listeners: A trade show is predominantly where there’s an exhibit hall and not much education; a convention is a combination. So when you go to a conference where there’s a combination of education, keynote speakers, breakouts, concurrent workshops, things like that, with an exhibit hall, that’s more of a convention.

What we do is comprehensive services. The company has been around since 2009, but in the last couple of years, we’ve added a certain amount of services. We started off just in the trade show world. We do exhibit and sponsorship sales and management. So an association outsources that to us. We contact companies, research companies, that might be interested in exhibiting or sponsoring at their meeting. When COVID hit, the events industry did just an amazing job during COVID, right? We were shut down.

Loren Feldman:
I remember that.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. We honestly thought we were gonna go out of business. At the time, we had been working on an event tech platform. The events industry started, I would say, 10 years ago, but really five years ago, really getting into event technology. We were already in it, and we switched very quickly to doing virtual conventions and trade shows. Because of that—you know, they often say that adversity can make you stronger—out of that became what I saw a need in the market for not just our trade show salesmanship, but the add-on additional services.

So now we do wraparound. We do registration. So when you go register to get your badge, we handle that. We do speaker management. So should this event be in Nashville? Or should it be in Omaha? Or should it be in Seattle? We’ll do site selection. We do all meetings management, logistics, food and beverage, sessions—where they should be—the event schedule, handling all of that. Hotel-room-block management: How many people are supposed to stay in this hotel? How many versus that hotel? We do something called lead retrieval. So any of you, all the listeners I’m sure, have been where you’ve taken your badge, and you’ve walked into the exhibit hall, and an exhibitor wants to scan your badge. That’s called lead retrieval. We handle that.

And then we handle—all of these came out of the adversity we faced during COVID—event-tech consulting. So associations can hire us to figure out how to take their event management and simplify it through technology.

Loren Feldman:
Can you give us an example of that? What does that mean?

Jennifer Kerhin:
So imagine—I heard this phrase years ago—that Excel spreadsheets are the “duct tape for meeting planners.” And Excel spreadsheets are wonderful, but they’re not databases. And we work with a specific technology platform. Some of our shows have 350 exhibitors, and all of those exhibitors need to upload their logos. And they need to figure out a certificate of insurance, they need to fill that out, they need to pay, they need to fill in their description.

That’s not done by Google Forms or Excel spreadsheets anymore. It’s by a specific technology platform that we work on. That’s a whole ‘nother story that I can get into. But we picked one. And so now we only work on one event-technology platform, because we’ve become experts on it. It’s called the Cadmium event-tech platform. But that way, you don’t use Excel spreadsheets. You don’t use a Google Form. It’s a database of speakers.

Let’s say you have 250 speakers. Speakers have to upload their bio, they have to upload their credentials, they have to give us their demands for honorarium or if it’s free, what they’re speaking about. Sometimes they have slides. Oftentimes, we have to get financial disclosures, depending on the type of meeting that is being run.

We have a big department that handles medical association meetings, which has a whole list of regulations that the government’s been involved in and different accrediting organizations have been involved in. And speakers have to fill out financial disclosure forms, so that you know if that speaker is being paid by a pharmaceutical company or a medical device company. So managing speakers.

Again, you could do it in an Excel spreadsheet, but we don’t want to work in duct tape anymore. We want to work in 21st century technology. And so we’ve moved out of that realm, and moved into the next level of managing an event—simplifying it so that associations can think about sort of the next generation of experiences for their attendants and not worry about the considerable amount of administrative work that goes into it.

Loren Feldman:
Can you give us a sense of how big the business is?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Sure. So I think we’re going to do $3.4 million this year. We were on track from a budget to do $3.2m. We managed to get some additional sales in, so I’m looking at about $3.38m. Right now, I will say, my Vistage group will be super happy that I can say that metric off the top of my head. When I started, I wasn’t the best at that. So I’ve gotten better. No CEO knows everything, as obviously the name of the 21 hats. One of my hats that I did not like to put on was the financial metrics. So I’m gonna give myself a little pat on the back that I can say that out loud.

Loren Feldman:
And how many employees do you have?

Jennifer Kerhin:
We have two starting this week. So full-time equivalents, I’m gonna say 26. I think we have 30 full time employees right now. But we have several part-time. One of the things that’s interesting: At the beginning of COVID, I thought this company was going to be out of business soon. And yet it made us stronger. One of the other ways it made us stronger, besides the technology, was we went to a fully virtual company. We no longer have an office. We used to. And I was two weeks away from buying a building. We were supposed to settle on March 22nd.

Loren Feldman:
Oh, you’re breaking Jay’s heart.

Jay Goltz:
No, she might be breaking her own heart long-term. So not my heart. I wonder, long-term, whether you’re not going to look back and go, “Oops, I should have bought the building.” Not sure yet.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, we’ll see.

Jay Goltz:
The jury’s still out.

Jennifer Kerhin:
The jury’s still out. We’ll see. We were supposed to buy it March 22nd, and I walked away from that because of COVID. And then I decided to go to a fully virtual office. So now we’re in 12 different states. So the two people who started on Monday are in two different states. I’m based in Maryland, but they’re based in other states. So we’ll see, Jay. We will see.

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m just saying, I think when you’ve got a lot of new employees, I have a hard time figuring out how you’re going to train and develop things—and not just for you, for lots of other companies in America. I think it’s still early in the game to figure out, long-term, whether that’s going to work. I will tell you, every single thing you say—because I’m heavily involved with the framing industry—I totally get everything you’re talking about. It makes perfect sense to me because I am out there, involved with it.

Let me ask you an interesting question, I think. We figured out in the framing industry, only 15 percent of picture framers go to the national trade show. What do you think it is in a lot of other industries?

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, it’s a strange statistic, because sometimes I’ve seen with smaller associations, they’re getting 25 to 35 percent of attendants based on membership, a percentage of membership. But those are small associations. The really big associations where you have a lot of members, they don’t get a high percentage. So I don’t think that that’s that bad, Jay. What I found is that associations will then come up with other types of meetings to try to get other groups. So for yours, are there other, what they call in the association, special interest groups? Do you have other smaller conferences?

Jay Goltz:
No, our problem is that the industry has shrunk considerably since the heyday because—it’s a whole story—a lot of it is just the Baby Boomers are getting out of framing and their kids aren’t framing pictures like they used to. And then there are big chain stores now that have eaten up a lot of the market. So the custom framing industry, for retail picture framers who own their own store, clearly is down by probably half. But still healthy, still enough business around.

But the part that I find interesting is whatever industry—the ones you just talked about, the one I’m in—it blows my mind that people would not go to a national trade show for the industry they’re in. And I just don’t think it’s smart. I think the fact that only—whatever the number: 15, 20, 25, 30—it’s hard for me to imagine how you could be in an industry and go to a trade show or a convention and not leave there with enough value that it paid for itself 10 times over. And that’s just surprising. I think the average person might think, “Oh, well, a national convention, I’m sure 80 percent of the people will go.” And that’s simply not the case.

Jennifer Kerhin:
No, and I agree. I am surprised that if you’re joining—now, let’s say your dues are $225 to the association—how you haven’t figured out that the return on investment of going to the annual meeting is worth it, I think the smartest associations have figured out that ROI and how to convince their members, but it is a problem across the board for all trade shows. You know, a member doesn’t mind writing a check for $225. And to be honest, sometimes it’s not even budget. Sometimes it’s just time out of the office. They’re like, “Oh, do I really wanna go…?”

Jay Goltz:
No question. Right, I’m too busy to go. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense, but that’s the nature of small business. No, that is interesting. Because in our industry, there’s no big accreditation, so the question becomes—this is absolutely chicken and egg. The people who don’t go say, “I can’t afford it.” And my argument is, can you afford not to go? And do the people who go there go there because it pays for itself? Or is it the fact that the people who don’t go to it can’t afford it?

It’s self-defeating. I mean, I think people need to go—I don’t know if “need” is the right word. If you want to grow your business, I believe going to a convention or a trade show is clearly worth the time commitment, even if you’ve got to close the business for a day or two.

Loren Feldman:
Because, Jay, you’re going to see how other people are running their businesses? Is that the idea?

Jay Goltz:
No, three reasons: A, there are vendors there. You might find a vendor that no one else knows about. And I mean, it’s hard to cover the country with reps. There are new vendors that come up that don’t necessarily have rep coverage around the country. B, the classes. You could find one insight from one class that just can change your whole world. And three, you can be standing in line getting lunch and start talking to the person next to you and get some tremendous insight from someone else who’s not in your market. That’s the key to this. You can let your hair down and have an honest conversation with somebody who’s across the country that you wouldn’t want to have with somebody whose business is two miles from yours. So like I said, I can’t imagine how this doesn’t pay for itself 10 times over.

Loren Feldman:
All right, you’ve written enough ad copy for Jennifer, Jay.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Well, and that’s just one side, right? If you’re a business, and you’re going to a trade association to learn about your business. But imagine a small business where their clients are at, right? Whether they decide to exhibit or not, if all of their clients or many of their clients go to a specific trade show, they should be there. Besides them going to learn about what they should do better in their company, learning what the clients are doing, what are the trends that their clients are seeing, what does the future look like for their clients? The only way they’re going to have all of their clients in one room possibly is at a convention or trade show. And so every small business out there should look at their top 10 clients and what trade shows they go to and figure out how to go to at least one of them every year.

Jay Goltz:
I can also tell you, I’ve got a couple of cronies who I’ve been friends with for 30, 40 years. I get tremendous insights from. One comment to me 30 years ago: “Oh, you should go to the trade show.” It changed my business. And then I started importing molding and stuff. So it could be just one comment from one person you’ve developed a relationship with over the years. You would have never had exposure to that person if you didn’t go to the convention or the trade show. So I’ve been to hundreds of them over the years, literally.

Loren Feldman:
We saw this in Chicago. Jay and I met you, Jennifer, at the first 21 Hats in-person event, and I know you talked to people around the room, and some of them, it seemed, hadn’t given a whole lot of thought to whether there even was an association for their industry.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, absolutely. Long-time listener, and so when Loren decided to have this meeting, I was one of the first people to email him and ask to sign up, because I know the value of meeting face-to-face in that kind of environment. I just wanted to meet other business owners.

And I was sitting next to Steve Krull, and we were talking about different trade associations. And he’s like, “I don’t think I’m a member of that many.” And we typed in one, and he was like, “Well, that’s not the right fit.” And then we found another one, and he’s like, “Whoa.” And we looked at the board of directors, and it was a lot of his competitors. And so he’s like, “Absolutely, I need to be a part of this.” I’m hoping I’m not throwing him under the bus a little bit.

Loren Feldman:
I think you’re giving him some good publicity.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Steve joined. I talked to him or emailed him afterwards, and I was like, “So did you join?” He’s like, “Yeah.” It was a trade association—a niche one—but a perfect fit for his type of company.

Loren Feldman:
Digital Marketing.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Yeah, a very specific type of digital marketing. So he was thrilled to see it. I think people sometimes think that trade associations are sort of very early 20th century. But if they look, a new trade association seems to be born once a week, right? Because the world of commerce and trade is changing so fast. There weren’t any artificial intelligence associations, I’m sure, 20 years ago, and I’m sure I can probably find 10 right now. So I think for every business owner out there, they should find the trade association that fits their company, and find the ones that are good for their clients.

Jay Goltz:
With that being said, many of them—you know, better than me—are struggling terribly.

Loren Feldman:
The associations?

Jay Goltz:
Yeah, there are lots of trade associations. Listen, we haven’t had a picture-framing trade show for two or three years because of COVID. And like, it’s getting started up again in February, but I know for others, COVID was brutal to them, and it’s been a problem. So while there are some new ones coming along, you tell us: Some of them have dropped out? Yes? No? Have some just gone out of business?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I think it just depends on the industry, Jay. I haven’t seen that across the board. We work with a wide variety of associations, and I think it depends on what’s happening with the industry. There are some associations that are growing gangbusters and even grew dramatically through COVID. Think about the industries that did really well in COVID. There were quite a few, and those associations did well, too. I think the bigger question, if you look at which ones are struggling, is: How much of their budget depends on the event? Or how much depends on dues? If it depends on the event, then sure, COVID was rough in our industry. Really rough.

Loren Feldman:
Do you have competition, Jennifer?

Jennifer Kerhin:
I do. I would say, honestly, there are other third-party companies out there like us, but the majority of our competition is more staff for associations. Does the association want to outsource this to a third-party? Or do they want to hire staff to do it internally? I mean, there are other competitors out there, but I feel like lots of times I compete with the concept of hiring staff to do it.

Loren Feldman:
You described a broad range of services that you offer and how those services, those offerings, expanded after COVID. As you were describing them, it occurred to me that each one of those represents a pricing decision. It seemed pretty complicated. How do you approach that?

Jennifer Kerhin:
So I vastly underestimated the level of complexity that I walked myself into when I decided to add these services. Yeah, Loren, you’re absolutely right. About two years ago, I decided to add all these other services. I understood the concept of them. I had been part of the events industry for 25 years. I knew the different vendors that were out there, the different ways it was done. But I underestimated it.

We operate on a scope of work based on a fee-based service. So for the whole year, if you want to do registration for 5,000 people, it’s going to cost X amount of dollars. It’s usually a 12-month planning cycle. And that’s what you pay us, based on the scope of work, which makes it a little bit easier for cash flow and definitely makes it a little bit easier for invoicing, but vastly underestimates how much time you have to spend to really define the scope of work. And you need people who really understand it to make sure the scope of work is done. So I’ve been learning a lot. There are a couple other ways. We do fees that we’re playing with. Hotel commissions are part of it. Lead retrieval fees are another part of it. Hourly tech support is another one. But I am working a lot of hours to figure that part out.

Jay Goltz:
I’ve gotta tell you, I went through the exact same thing with every one of my businesses, because I didn’t understand the business model, quote-unquote. Like when I went to the wholesale side, I didn’t know the volume and paying sales reps. So I’ve been through the whole thing with trying to figure out what you’ve got to charge and what the expenses are.

So I won’t even say you’re reinventing the wheel, because in some ways, you probably are inventing the wheel. You’re coming up with a whole new thing to some degree. So that’s normal, and you are going to figure it out. And as soon as you figure it out, life gets easier, because then you start charging properly, and then all of a sudden, you can afford better staff and life gets easier.

Jennifer Kerhin:
Jay, how long do you think that took? I’m still in the midst of it.

Jay Goltz:
Well, it depends… I hate to tell you, it took me 10 years. But I’m going to help you here so it’s going to take you 10 months. [Laughter]

Jennifer Kerhin:
I’m at the 18 month-mark.

Jay Goltz:
I had no one to talk to you. I’m telling you, I had no one to talk to. And my framing business got so much bigger than anybody else’s. It’s not like I could go find someone to talk to about, “What do you do with a million-dollar frame shop?” And I had to figure it out, and you know, it took a while. In your case, you’re gonna figure it out much quicker.

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