Episode with guest: Martin Babinec
(This episode was recorded in January of 2021.)
Key Episode Take-Aways:
1. Disciplines have to be put in place if startups want to survive. (click to jump to this topic below) And that goes back to the disciplines that the startup has to put into effect, in order to be able to survive.
2. Strategic planning of long-term goals that don't involve public money is important. (click to jump to this topic below) But to the extent your tribe put some things together, that you can help manage collaboration towards some longer-term goals, especially ones that don't require public money, because anything involving public money comes with strings.
3. Having the ability to adapt can help companies from struggling or failing. (click to jump to this topic below) And why did they go belly up? Because they didn't adapt. Okay, they didn't adapt, sometimes it's the changes in the external environment, the market shifts. Another technology came out that was better government regulation.
Continue scrolling to read the full episode transcription.
Each year for the last 29 years, a community of game changers have gathered together from around the world to learn, share, and celebrate the principles and practices of the Great Game of Business at the world's largest conference on open-book management. This year we are back in Dallas baby! Stronger than ever because let's face it, we are better together. Join us virtually or in person in doubt September 8 through 10th. For the Great Game of Business Conference, visit openbookconference.com for more information.
Welcome to the "Change the Game" Podcast, where we share stories of open book management and highlight capitalism at its best. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the change the game podcast with guest co-host Jack Stack as he interviews author Martin Babinec. In this episode Jack discusses with Martin how common values predictability and transparency can give your business value. Here's your hosts, Rich Armstrong and Steve Baker.
Steve Baker 1:19
Welcome back to the "Change the Game" Podcast where we are changing the game by doing business differently. And we're highlighting stories of capitalism at its best. I'm Steve Baker. And as always, we've got Rich Armstrong, president of the Great Game of Business here and co-author of our new book, Get in the Game. Hi, Rich.
Rich Armstrong 1:37
Steve Baker 1:39
Great to have you back Martin. Martin, tell us a little bit about your newest project Upstate Venture Connect.
Martin Babinec 1:58
Hello Jack, Steve, and Rich, thank you for inviting me. The book reflects a goal on my part to help other people in their communities, engage and support entrepreneurs starting and growing companies. So, the focus of Upstate Venture Connect would then be how are we going to increase the number of companies in the innovation economy, not relying on government subsidies to attract big corporations to come in, which is the typical move in which the data proves out is very unsuccessful and is a waste of taxpayer money. But instead grow those companies organically. And that's the mission that we've been on and will continue to be on.
Steve Baker 2:46
So, 10 years of this. I'm curious about, you know, how was it first received by not only entrepreneurs and the communities themselves. But also, you know, who are we trying to influence here a whole state of a company combination of businesspeople, politicians, constituents? I mean, what do they think then? And then what's been the progress in the last 10 years?
Martin Babinec 3:10
Okay, so I got lots of arrows on my back, I could tell you a lot of things that didn't work. One of the important things that didn't work that was it's probably worth sharing, is that when I began, because I could get access just about anywhere, like I can get to college presidents, I can get to mayors, I can get to high level politicians, elected Assemblyman, and state senators, etc. Even the governor. And so, I had access. This is corporate people; I can get in doors. And I can be talking to these people and convince them a we got to work towards collaboration, because I knew that that the issue was everybody's kind of doing their own thing. And all these efforts are siloed. And there's no collaboration institutionally across some boundaries that need to be crossed. And things are also siloed by geography, like what one metro area does is so completely cut off from what another metro area does, where they could be close enough to collaborate, but they don't. So those were problems I knew, and I thought I was going to really help lobby from the top down, didn't work. It took about two and a half years, then concluded that strategy is not working. All right. So, what do we do, we instead focused on let's prowl around within the innovation economy were the places that people are hanging out. And let's see who's actually doing something. And let's concentrate our efforts of building our network with those people who are the doers, because by concentrating on the doers, rather than just the people that are at the highest levels, that will grow it from the bottom up organically. And that's the path that is proven to have a lot more impact. And in the book, we talk about how to do that including the different paths of trying to scale up what we call creative collisions, getting the right people to bump into each other by are helping to orchestrate getting the right people in the room. And also, by scaling up the volume and quality of referral by trusted source. These are the two ways that new relationships get going. And then can we, through Upstate Venture Connect bill through platform and process and extending a connected network? Can we scale up the volume and quality of both creative collisions and referral electronic source? That's, that's the formula. And as an example of that, even investors, because when it comes to angel investors, which are the people that take the greatest risk going into early-stage companies, there are a lot of reasons that people who have capital and are really interested in they're trying to help their community. There are a lot of reasons they sit on the sidelines and listen to their financial advisors tell them investing in a startup company is the stupidest thing you can do with your money. All right. And so, there's a lot of headwinds that are going on, that get in the way of people that want to help, don't get involved in actually helping so you know, we spend a lot of energy around, how do you solve that problem and getting people to actually work together and crossing these boundaries in ways that are in very common like in Silicon Valley, these things are already figured out. So, you know, and I'm no magician, you know, and I'm not the smartest guy around. But when I find something, that's the best practice, like the Great Game of Business, I'm in the case, philosophy, copy and steal everything. If it's an idea, you guys come up with the, you know, the program and the process. You know, I'd be crazy not to copy and steal it. All right. So, I just try to take that which works in these proven areas that are growing lots of jobs in the new economy, and say, Well, how can we repurpose it to work in an area that's not growing new economy jobs, in a waving goodbye to their next generation talent, who are then leaving for places like Silicon Valley, New York City, Boston, Austin, Boulder, Colorado, etc. Because that's where the jobs are in the new industries.
Jack Stack 7:22
I keep having this instinct that it's not only about making the private equity or capital available, it's fact that you have a secret sauce.
1. Disciplines have to be put in place if startups want to survive.
And that goes back to the disciplines that the startup has to put into effect, in order to be able to survive. And I think what, what you're doing, which is so critical, is really teaching them how to be successful and then forcing them okay, by your repetitive nature of doing things right. Okay, to then never, the worst thing that you can start with Mr. forecast, worst thing that you can, in terms of when you're out there trying to tech capital is to consistently go to your boards and say, oh, I missed my number again. Okay. And that is probably one of the most crucial steps at a startup doesn't even recognize and the other is just how much equity Should I give away? Or how much should I borrow? And I kind of believe that, you know, especially reading your book is that the whole idea of a sound, startup education, is what's creating the success factor and the success factor breeds more success. Now, how do you get that into the anti-movement, which is the government, okay, that puts the innovation centers together, tells everybody they can be entrepreneurs, puts 1400 entrepreneurial programs, United States really more to make money for the universities in the education system, then to really figure out how to make this thing as successful as we possibly can. I mean, you're a guy in your own lane, and you're staying in your lane, and you're thinking that okay, the highway is going to open it here. Eventually, I can say this, I'm hitting my head up against the same thing you're talking about?
Martin Babinec 9:18
Yeah. Of course, I do have a political side, too, in that. Yeah, I think you may be aware, I did run for Congress as an independent candidate, back in 2016. And one of the reasons I did that was to really learn more about the political process. And it was an education that was so worthwhile. All right, I learned a ton. But it was also a launchpad for an effort in creating a minor party, not a minor party that's ever going to be a national minor party. But remember, the states are a laboratory for change that sometimes can spill upwards. And believe it or not, I am more optimistic now that the right things are happening to create an awareness of how states can lead, change it at the national level. I'm more optimistic about that now than I've ever been before. And so are tiny upstate jobs party is now really putting more energy to capitalize on some of the movements that are probably outside of your view right now. But yes, there is a political side, that is one of my activities, to further exactly what you're talking about, Jack.
Jack Stack 10:34
We don't see it a political side that doesn't want to do it, okay. We see political sides that just don't do it. I mean, they, they tell you, they want to do it. And they say, well, let's go collaborate and bring this to our head. And then four years later, it's gone. And we have a new director of economic development, or we have a whole new budget in terms of how they're going to subsidize programs to create more jobs, you know, and we never get to it. So maybe you can help the audience here. I love this accelerated process that you're going through, and you're the most, you're the most optimistic person. Okay, when it comes down to getting the impossible done. Alright, so I'd like to feed off you. Okay, I'd like to know, what can I do here, okay, to get more of our community. And listen, we really do have a good community, okay. And I think because of our consistency in our age, you know, we have, the community has been really, really good to us. And the community is really getting the whole idea of financial literacy, we see it in our utility companies, we see it in the governments and everything of this nature. So, I think this idea of, you got to start with yourself and then grow outward is really, really true. Okay. But, you know, how do you do it? How are you doing on that large of a scale? Okay.
Martin Babinec 11:59
I did touch on this earlier, about recognizing going to the leaders and working down was not a winning strategy. Right, difference for us was deciding who are the people who are actually doing it? And how can we cultivate relationships with them and support them so that they could increase the impact they're having and spread our network? Among the Doers? That's really a key page out of our playbook, which I do talk about in the book.
Jack Stack 12:31
So how do you keep How do you get to these people that are really doing what you're doing, and there's a lot of them out there, and the who have made that decision to sit there and go, I don't want to cabinet posts in Washington, DC, I don't want to run for politics, I just want to stay in my lane, with the idea that if our value proposition is a true value proposition, it has to start with ourselves and grow inward outward, than trying to go out there and take a cabinet posts and try to change the whole philosophical view of the market.
Martin Babinec 13:02
People want to join a tribe. And when your description of the tribe and how they fit in, aligns with their interest and their heart, they will step forward. And then why is it when we get them to step in, it's also a matter of having the resources and the path to support their growth and engagement. So, you know, it doesn't happen with just a single meeting. As you think about any of the relationships that become meaningful for you. It's because the relationship is nurtured. And you're giving more than you're asking for. This is how relationships get built, and how impact grows. When the right group of leaders commit to a longer-term plan. That's another important element. The political process is fraught with people it can only think in one- or two-years cycles. Yeah, right. And, you know, this is not a one- or two-year cycle kind of deal. I've been at this 11 years.
Jack Stack 14:14
We don't learn from cycle to cycle either. We don't understand that the importance of a 10-year plan is that once you go through your 10-year plan, what you've learned from that 10-year plan to set even a better 10 year plan we can't that's the foundation that we're trying to get routed right. This is the start.
Martin Babinec 14:30
Yes, you want to grow your tribe. That's what you want to be thinking about growing your tribe, looking for the right leaders, who can also have magnetic pole to bring out of their networks more people to expand your tribe membership. This applies to any cause that someone is trying to grow.
Jack Stack 14:55
So why are we so quiet?
Martin Babinec 14:59
What do you mean? You got a lot to be proud of.
Jack Stack 15:01
I think a lot of people are in business are afraid to stick their necks out because of repercussions. I think that there's such a national moved on businesses and businesspeople. And they think it's much safer for them to be able to just worry about what they're doing right in front of them instead of expanding and creating that kind of warmth and collaboration that you're looking for.
Martin Babinec 15:26
But you know, you're not going to find success with every business leader that you come across. But there are people out there that share your values. And can you make it easy and inviting for them to be part of your tribe? That's leadership. That's my view. You know, my friend, Brad Feld wrote this book, the startup community way. All right. And this is another really good resources on top of his book called Startup Communities, where he does a fantastic in helping to explain how things look from the perspective of those that are holding office and holding some of those posts that you've mentioned, Jack, that get in the way of progress on long term goals, and what some of the systemic issues are behind. So, I'd also point that out, probably it would be a separate discussion, he'd be somebody worth invited to join the game discussion at some point in the future.
Rich Armstrong 16:26
Jack Stack 16:26
But I tell you what, anybody that can get an add to sending the message of the importance of long-term goals, okay, is a valuable commodity. Okay, because Rich and Steve can tell you, how many people will sit there and go plan, plan? Are you crazy? I don't even have time the plan. Alright, oh, I don't want to attend this session. Because high involvement planning? I mean, it's, you're crazy. Who gets involved in planning nowadays? And you want to just hit your forehead. Say, don't you understand that the only way you're going to get to what it is you want to get to? Is by planning? You know, I think that's an interesting discussion. I think it's a good point. Okay. I mean, I don't know how many clans, our community have had here. Strategic plans, okay, then never was executed. It's an opposite, almost as if planning is in opposition now, which scares me more than anything.
Martin Babinec 17:25
Well, especially things that involve collaboration across multiple entities, that's alright.
2. Strategic planning of long-term goals that don't involve public money is important.
But to the extent your tribe put some things together, that you can help manage collaboration towards some longer-term goals, especially ones that don't require public money, because anything involving public money comes with strings, you might have a whole bunch of people in your community that share the vision and be willing to support it with private money. Alright, because you do have to have some infrastructure to keep communications alive, and to get the word out, alright, and get people together. So, you know, there is a place for there to be some resources devoted towards steady progress of a long-term goal.
Jack Stack 18:18
No, I totally agree with you, I, we have just completed a video on all of our properties and what they'll look like in 10 years. And with those drones, and everything you got right now, I mean, when you look at the imprint that we're going to have between now and 10 years from now, at, you know, it's over three and a half million square feet, and half of it has to be developed, and then we're going to be presenting it to the community and how many people in business have really said, Hey, this is where we're headed in 10 years. And in the hopes that, you know, maybe when they do their next strategic plan, or their economic development, they would ask you what you're doing. Okay. So, you could develop the connection. I mean, if you're going to develop an economic plan, would it be a good idea to talk about the people that are in the business cycle that have the equity or have capital, and as their participation in terms of where you're going? And maybe we can kind of work together instead of lobbing grenades at each other, right? For sure. So, we're going to try to put it in a pictorial form, and then not only in leverage, but exactly same way also you do. I mean, when we see people that are now going to see us putting up retail centers or have manufacturing facilities, you know, we know that they'll be sitting there saying, how do I get how do I become a part of this? Okay? That whole idea of we're going to try to visualize a 10-year plan now.
Martin Babinec 19:49
And again, that's for the community, your immediate community around you. But I'm still a believer that the appeal of the Great Game has tremendous opportunity for that broader scope of what I mentioned as innovation economy companies, including in places like Silicon Valley, New York City, Boston, etc. Where you have teams coming together, who are being held accountable, because I'll tell you this when you are a venture capital backed company, and they end up having a board of directors that are primarily seated with people that are financial people, occasionally, you'll have some entrepreneurs on there. But you have, you do have some financial discipline as they move up the capital stack. And oftentimes, you have entrepreneurs as I was first time entrepreneur without that grounding in these things, alright, without really understanding enough about the financial literacy and the importance of driving that through the workforce. These leaders in these earlier stage companies want to engage their team, their livelihood, as the CEO is dependent on our having an engaged and literate team. They need the easy glide path for them to see the relevancy and the How to, and yes, they have a short attention span, because you have that across, you know, many of the people that come exposed to the game, they hear the, you know, the high level dream and the, you know, these great stories, but you know, what's the distance between this description of the Promised Land, and the reality of where that business is today, and that gap seems to be so large, that they, they can't figure out how to close that gap in any reasonable timeframe, because it's too amorphous, it's too hard for them to see. That is what I would argue is the challenge for your great game team. And the more time you would be, you know, you get exposure to the types of companies that I'm suggesting, you may have flavors of the Great Game that could address companies in that particular situation. Because then you get to the point of having the type of messaging that is understood by that target audience as being relevant. You will have a path beating to your door.
Jack Stack 22:22
Okay, we're screaming the same message. Okay. We're screaming like crazy. But, you know, how come the millennials aren't ready for this when they get into the marketplace? Okay. I mean, how come they don't come worker ready? When everything that you're saying is the ideal, okay, that it should be the goal. And we keep swimming upstream, we keep swimming upstream. Listen, I participate in all the innovation programs here, the entrepreneurship programs here and I want to pull my hair out because they're not getting this message. Okay. So how do we package this message, right? How do we make that change?
Martin Babinec 23:05
Jack Stack 23:06
I can build the biggest driver in the world, okay. But if I can't stop this education system to be looking at one way, one thing. I mean, it's like David and Goliath.
Martin Babinec 23:18
You can't boil the ocean, Jack. All right. So, choose your battles?
Jack Stack 23:25
Don't you have a statement on fish?
Martin Babinec 23:27
Yeah. Well, you know, the fact is, I care a lot about education. All right. And I do have a whole separate initiative on education. There is a chapter in the book on that. All right. And I'm very involved with my local community, in accelerating change in education. But I choose to do that as just an adjunct to other things that I do. All right, and, and where possible, to leverage relationships that are already in my network with my main areas of focus. So yeah, I agree that if you wanted to put financial literacy into the education system, and have that be a focus to a game, there's a tremendous upside there. But that's a whole different ballgame than helping the companies. And as you mentioned earlier, the companies have greater incentive, and greater ability to bring about change, then the bureaucratic education system with political influences, and unions and all these other things that get in the way of doing what needs to be done. Businesses can move faster, all right, and when they can see that line of sight from where they are to how this will have an impact and having a successful company. the right leadership can make that movement very fast, much faster than an educational institution would be my observation.
Jack Stack 24:53
Is that your mission statement in Educators Cross Borders where, don't give them a fish, teach them how to fish. Is that one of the mission statements?
Martin Babinec 25:03
Well, Entrepreneurs Across Borders is another nonprofit. I have four nonprofits and four companies, all right.
Jack Stack 25:10
Martin Babinec 25:10
And Entrepreneurs Across Borders tries to take the lessons we've learned in the 11 years of Upstate Venture Connect, working in Upstate New York and repurposing it for helping entrepreneurs and aspiring entrepreneurs in underdeveloped countries.
Jack Stack 25:27
Martin Babinec 25:27
Yeah. So, Jamaica is our pilot. It's a lot of fun, by the way, and I welcome anyone in this audience that's interested in plugging in and think of the impact that you can have in helping entrepreneurs who are really hungry, and just don't have the opportunity to get mentoring and help from real seasoned entrepreneurs. All right, and then, and they have their own structural issues and barriers and, you know, things culturally and politically, there's, it's a very different ballgame than the US. So that's another long-term plan. But we'll have to come want to bookmark that for a future discussion. Ask me in 10 years, and we'll see how far along we are.
Jack Stack 26:10
But I didn't want to put in a plug for that not-for-profit. Okay. And I, I also think that that whole thing is applicable to what you're doing.
Martin Babinec 26:19
Jack Stack 26:19
You know, right where you're at. I mean, all you're doing is expanding upon it. Yeah. It seems like they're more interested, though. I mean, the experiences that I've had, and I remember Tom Peters telling me a long time ago, and he was real, his book, pursuit of excellence, he said, you know, Jack, I just got back from China. He said in a nice speech, he said, there were 6000 millennials in their audience. He said, they give speeches in the United States, I never see a millennial. Never forget that. So, the I guess the idea is that how do we get the millennials in the stadium, right?
Rich Armstrong 26:56
Martin Babinec 26:57
The path from my perspective is through the leaders of those companies.
Jack Stack 27:02
To be teachers?
Martin Babinec 27:04
Well, if you get the leader of these companies to buy in, then you will see an audience, because the people in that company will eventually go to other companies.
Jack Stack 27:18
Martin Babinec 27:20
But, you know, you It really means getting leaders involved, because there's definitely people out there that have been through TriNet experience. And it certainly during my tenure, anyway, would even recognize it as the great game of business. They would hear the words, and they know what the Great Game of Business means. All right.
Jack Stack 27:41
And you're saying we're not working hard enough?
Martin Babinec 27:44
Well, you're not working in the direction with a focus on innovation economy companies. That's what I'm suggesting is an opportunity. But it means having a concentrated focus and saying, how do we reach them? How do we nurture them? What's the right way to give them the quickest path to reflect also that it's a different business than a manufacturing plant or a retail store? Or, you know, a different type of service business? There are different issues.
Jack Stack 28:15
I'm faced with this thing all the time, from industries that said, Well, it won't work in my company, you know. And we're trying to take one hurdle at a time saying don't we all have the same report card? I mean, don't we all at the end of the day, have an income statement, balance sheet, and cash flow statement? All right. Is it the measurement by which we're all judged by and if in fact, we are, then why don't we engage everybody in terms of pursuing the same results? Seems to be so comic-book simple but so difficult to be able to spread.
Rich Armstrong 28:53
I think what Martin, you know, it's kind of interesting, Martin of, you know, the type of leader you're describing, because I think that's been a barrier for Great Game over the years is that you've had leaders that just didn't think that way. They didn't embrace transparency or, you know, value the, you know, the opportunity involved everybody in the organization. But what I hear you saying is that there's a new leadership out there in this innovation economy that would embrace it, if it's presented to them, and they were aware of it.
Martin Babinec 29:25
And they could see how flexible it was for their organization and a path of plugging in. Right, because the difficulty is, they would buy the vision, but see a big disconnect, or where they probably are, and the steps to get from where they are to, to that dreamland. It's just too hard for them to figure out. That's a challenge. In the innovation economy, where especially you have companies that are being backed by equity capital in are growing rapidly as a result, the only companies that survive are those that are highly adaptive. Alright? Because remember, the faster you grow, sometimes capital can if you need a big influx of capital, and a reflection of there's a lot of growth opportunity from a marketplace demand, you still have plenty of examples of companies that swallowed a lot of capital and then went belly up. Alright?
3. Having the ability to adapt can help companies from struggling or failing.
And why did they go belly up? Because they didn't adapt. Okay, they didn't adapt, sometimes it's the changes in the external environment, the market shifts. Another technology came out that was better government regulation, competition, and you know, there's the external environment can shift in any of those things. But leadership, good leadership learns to adapt, even with changes in the environment. And the best leadership is able to create that culture of adaptability, top to bottom. So, it's not just the CEO that's adaptive, the creating a culture of adaptivity. And I would argue that the Great Game of Business, this is part of the philosophy you get, you don't get people at every level of a business being highly adaptive, unless they bought into it, you know, they know the rules of the game. They're you're keeping score, so they know where they stand, and they've got a stake in the outcome. I mean, these are the foundational principles of the Great Game. And if you're a leader in these companies, which are under lots of pressure to be adaptive, it's making it easy for them to understand. If you want your company to survive, much less thrive. It has to be with the entire company being adaptive, not just the top of the pyramid.
Jack Stack 32:09
I know we're coming to a close. But I think the segue into closing is I cannot, we basically have four pillars of leadership. And one of the most significant one is change management, which is that adaptability, you got to be moving on the fly. And I know some of us have been around here 40 years, have been through four different recessions and learn the importance of adaptability and knowing once you know that when you come into the next pandemic, you know what to do in order to be able to overcome it, I can't agree with you more. The other elements is talent development, and we'd look for heavily because we cannot scale without it. And you did an extraordinary job bringing in the right people at the right place. Okay. And, you know, I guess the third one, which I think is very important is we believe in the whole idea of relationship building. With the entire community, I mean, the entire community, it's just not a supplier relationship or customer relationship, it is our relationship with our community. How do we fit in? How do we contribute? How do we make a difference, and that is something that I think you guys are doing in a large, large scale, and seeing just incredible results, I just hope that we can participate with you to move this thing even faster. And we my biggest frustrations as I'm learning now, you know, I want to be able to do what you're saying. It's very difficult to build a tribe today, especially with everybody having a computer and having a podcast and every single proprietary starting their business, delivering value propositions and you know, the noise out there is so big right now, you know, and sometimes what it does, it overwhelms the message to be heard, right? So, it's really nice when you take the time to write a book and the things that you're doing, because I do believe it's all about example setting, okay, and living and walking the talk and the delivering the message and I like you I just think it's the greatest message you can call you're going to close the gap between the haves and have nots, right. And that's really what it really comes down to. Someone's got to come up with that solution. And I'm proud to know that you're one of the one of the guys that knows how to and have figured it out. My hat's off to you.
Martin Babinec 34:30
Well, not figured it out yet. But I've been able to progress on the journey thanks to you and the Great Game of Business. That is the truth. I'm a lucky guy.
Jack Stack 34:42
So, come to Missouri, I'll take your fishing just like we did that time where you and your son and I. He got a strong top water bite there's, I bet he remembers that tap water bite.
Martin Babinec 34:58
Jack Stack 34:59
Yea, that was nice.
Martin Babinec 35:01
We can't wait to come back; I think it would be amazing as soon as we get this Covid behind us.
Jack Stack 35:07
Please see us.
Martin Babinec 35:08
All right. And likewise, for you to come and visit me in upstate New York.
Jack Stack 35:13
Soon as the virus is under control.
Martin Babinec 35:18
Jack Stack 35:18
God bless you.
Martin Babinec 35:19
God bless you too.
Steve Baker 35:20
Jack Stack. Thank you so much. Rich Armstrong.
Jack Stack 35:23
Steve and let me just end with one thing and it's also to promote the book. The fourth element of our leadership pillars is strategic planning, okay. And I know we covered a little bit in the in the presentation, but there's also a lot in that book about the importance of it. And so, we're totally aligned, Martin, we're totally aligned. Thank you. All right.
Martin Babinec 35:45
Steve Baker 35:45
Well, Martin thank you so much. Jack, thank you as well, it's been a great discussion. I've just taken so many notes. I do like the fact that you guys have really kind of identified this idea that that change really does start at the top. It's one of our core values and one of our higher laws of business. But the real change happens when we allow that environment to reach people in education. And then it's a groundswell it's really got to be, you know, the support comes from beneath from bottom to top. So that that's some big lessons there. You can't boil the ocean. I think another good takeaway. And the couple of books that I wanted to point out, you mentioned for our listeners, The New Geography of Jobs and The Startup Community Way that you recommended, and of course, I heard there's a great book called More Good Jobs: An Entrepreneurs Action Plan to Create Change in Your Community. Folks, you can learn more about Martin and everything he's doing in his community at moregoodjobs.org. Martin Babinec.
Rich Armstrong 36:50
Great, Martin, thank you so much.
Martin Babinec 36:52
All right, Rich, Steve, and Jack.
Rich Armstrong 36:56
Thank you so much. Take care.
Steve Baker 36:58
Well, let's keep the conversation going. Guys. send us your stories, your best practices, your ideas, your challenges, your victories, your questions, and remember, you're not alone. This is capitalism at its best. Thanks for joining us. We will see you next time.
The "Change the Game" Podcast is produced by the Great Game of Business. To learn more, visit greatgame.com.