Embrace It. Leverage It. Or Die

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Loren Feldman:
Welcome, Liz, Sarah, Laura. It’s great to have you all here. I appreciate your taking the time. Liz, let’s start with you. I gather, you’ve been thinking about whether you should have a board of advisors. What got you thinking about this?

Liz Picarazzi:
So what really got me thinking about it was, as we’ve grown, and it’s become more important for me to work externally with potential partners and collaborators and vendors. I have so many different kinds of people that I’m seeking advice from, or just answering a question for me, and a good number of them now want me to have a retainer with them.

So I suddenly have two or three vendors that I really, really would like to work with, but not necessarily in the capacity—let’s say a lobbyist—of having a retainer. So that got me thinking. I don’t need eight people on retainer. What if I just got them together, like once a quarter, to go over some of the main things that they all could have input in?

And it really was coming from a place of: I really need the wisdom of these people. How do I interact with them? I kind of approached it from: Could they be on some sort of retainer? And then I found out how much it was, and realized I probably could get a lot of information by doing some sort of an advisory board. So that’s where it came from.

What I should say is that I don’t really know much about an advisory board—you know, how to structure it, how to form it. And that’s where I’m trying to decide: Do I get advice from people on how to create an advisory board? Or do I create an advisory board as I would like to have one or be on one, which probably would be a lot less formal?

Loren Feldman:
Laura, you’ve been doing this longer than Liz or Sarah. Have you considered at any point forming some sort of board?

Laura Zander:
That’s a great question. Yes, I did, probably 10 years ago. So maybe we were 10 years in, and that’s kind of when we wanted to really grow. And I think it was for me, I think I was just really floundering and didn’t know which way to grow and didn’t know who to trust. That was a big part of it. I’ve got all these people telling me, “You should do this,” or, “You should do that.” And I just didn’t know who to believe and who not to believe.

So, yeah, I decided not to and decided to just try to find more people like Jay—people who could just be my friend and could be mentors and who had similar experiences. You know, that Jason Fried article that you put out the other day about finding people who have actually lived what I’ve lived, and who have lived what I’ve lived relatively recently.

Loren Feldman:
Be careful who to take advice from. Make sure it’s from people who’ve had the experience that’s relevant.

Laura Zander:
Yes. Yep. Exactly. And the side note to that is: Don’t take criticism from anybody you wouldn’t take advice from.

Loren Feldman:
That’s a good point.

Laura Zander:
So for me, at this point, I’m glad that we didn’t, because I think that I can just get clouded with having too many cooks in the kitchen, too many different people who have too many different opinions. And then what do you do?

Liz Picarazzi:
But so Laura, what I’m thinking about is having them all literally meet together. So some of the too many cooks in the kitchen could kind of get cut down in a shorter period. What I’m doing right now is, I’m talking to, like, 12 different cooks, and they’re giving me a ton of information. And I actually think if they got into the kitchen together that, ironically, we would be able to really work through some things and get some answers in a more collaborative way. If it’s just me one-on-one with the person who could be the lobbyist, then, I don’t know. I’m not getting the perspective of the other maybe nine or 10 people who could be around and could see: Is that a good move or not?

Laura Zander:
And are you—I’m sorry, I’m gonna sound like a total jerk—soliciting advice from all these different people because you don’t trust your own gut?

Liz Picarazzi:
No, it’s in areas where I haven’t worked. So some of them are relating to expanding sales with the government. There’s a lot of things, some technical things with product, definitely with sales. That’s an area where I think we could really grow. So it’s like a little bit here and there.

Can I trust my gut on certain things having to do with hardware and those sorts of decisions? No, I can’t, actually. I don’t have anyone on my team who has some of that knowledge. It’s not like I’m just fearful, and I don’t know how to do it. It’s like stuff I literally don’t understand or know.

Laura Zander:
Got it. Got it, and so you’re reaching out to consultants at this point and paying people to get their input?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes.

Laura Zander:
And remind me, are you self-funded?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes.

Laura Zander:
Okay.

Sarah Segal:
Would you be paying this board? Would you be paying them for their time to come together?

Liz Picarazzi:
I would totally be willing to, and I think it would be worth it. I just don’t even know how that’s handled. Like, how do you approach someone with an advisory opportunity? Do you put the number right out there? You know, actually, tactically, how do you do stuff like that?

Laura Zander:
Liz, how much are you doing in sales? Can you share that? Or are you not comfortable sharing?

Liz Picarazzi:
I would rather not.

Loren Feldman:
You’ve shared it before, Liz.

Liz Picarazzi:
I know, but…

Laura Zander:
Is it $10 million?

Liz Picarazzi:
No, no, no. Between three and four.

Laura Zander:
Okay, and how much do you expect to grow in the next five years? Are you looking to triple it, quadruple it?

Loren Feldman:
She’s been trying to double every year. Right, Liz?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yeah.

Laura Zander:
Okay, you’re trying to double every year. So it’s fast, fast growth. And are you going to need to take money, investment, at some point? Or do you foresee self-funding forever?

Liz Picarazzi:
For as long as I can.

Laura Zander:
Okay, so you’re making a profit?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes.

Laura Zander:
Got it. I don’t know. To me, it just seems like a distraction.

Loren Feldman:
Sarah, you were, for a while, part of a larger operation that you parted with earlier this year. Did that larger company have a board?

Sarah Segal:
No, it didn’t. You know, I see Liz’s perspective. And like, I thought about it as well. But I worry about putting too many people in the same room and not being productive, in terms of conversations.

Laura Zander:
Me too.

Sarah Segal:
So I actually started doing this thing this year, where I’m taking somebody out to lunch once a week. That’s my personal goal: to take somebody new out to lunch. And it’s somebody I’ve met, or usually it’s somebody unfamiliar, or somebody who I just really want to pick their brain.

And half the time, it has turned into new business, which is kind of cool. But it’s nice, because it’s just unstructured, and it’s an easy conversation. And if I call somebody up or email them and say, “Hey, can I take you out to lunch?” The answers are usually yes.

Loren Feldman:
How are you picking those people?

Sarah Segal:
Um, there’s not necessarily a strategy to it. It’s more like: Hey, I’m really interested in learning more about fractional CFOs. And so I reached out to a woman this week who is a fractional CFO for nonprofits, just to find out what that is, what services they provide, when I would want to consider working with somebody who does that. And so it’s kind of whatever’s top of mind to me.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yeah, I like that idea. I like the informality of it.

Loren Feldman:
Liz, I’m surprised that the first area that you mentioned, the expertise that you’re looking for, is a lobbyist. That never would have occurred to me that a company your size would need a lobbyist—to some extent at all, but certainly on a board.

Liz Picarazzi:
Loren, can I share with you why that’s not the case?

Loren Feldman:
Please.

Liz Picarazzi:
We’re talking about trash and parking spots in New York City and kind of the debate between: it’s either rats or parking spots. You gotta choose.

Loren Feldman:
Wait a second. Explain that.

Liz Picarazzi:
If you boil it all down, the debate about taking care of trash in New York City and containerizing it, it’s largely about parking spots.

Loren Feldman:
Because you need the space to put your enclosures. Is that what you’re saying?

Liz Picarazzi:
Exactly. To containerize the trash, you would need to go in parking spots. And that’s highly political, for a lot of reasons. So there’s just a lot of people who are involved in that. And I’ve definitely come up the learning curve a lot from being in it. And that might actually make the argument for not having advisor/lobbyists on that. But it’s not another city where they’re dealing with a little minor situation, and they have enough parking. Parking is such a political issue. And that’s why I say: It’s either rats or parking. You either containerize the trash, or you put it on the sidewalk.

Sarah Segal:
You know who I’d take out to lunch? Whoever spearheaded the parklets. That’s who I would go for.

Liz Picarazzi:
I know her, and I happened to meet with her this morning. [Laughter]

Laura Zander:
Nice job, Sarah.

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes, I have to say it’s the person who was the advocate for it and for things like it as well as the actual designer, because I am talking to them about some future collaborations, which I’m super excited about.

Loren Feldman:
Liz, when I think of a lobbyist, I think of somebody that you hire to help change laws, to try to convince legislators to do something differently, as opposed to a consultant you might hire to help you understand the way the current laws work and how you can get business under the current regime. How are you thinking about using a lobbyist?

Liz Picarazzi:
Well, so I can say I’m not hiring a lobbyist. Because I had one meeting with one where I could tell that I knew far more about trash and sanitation and laws about it, and which city council members were on which committee. And I realized: I’m on top of this already.

But there are areas where, for instance, next week, there’s going to be a hearing about whether restaurants can continue to put trash in bags on the sidewalk or whether they’re going to be required to containerize them. So that’s before the city council. Obviously, you know which one I want, which is, require the restaurants to put them in containers. So that’s the sort of thing where, could I influence that or not? I’m not quite sure. But there are multiple things being legislated right now about trash that impact my business.

Loren Feldman:
That makes sense. What are the other types of vendors that you’re thinking about that you would want to have part of the conversation you’re imagining?

Liz Picarazzi:
It’s more about getting advice also from veterans. So, for instance, in the locker space, I’ll say kind of broadly, there are a bunch of companies that do lockers, and a couple of them are somewhat similar to mine. And I’m talking to them, and they’re really just kind of being nice. And we’re passing along some advice. But that would be the sort of person where I would really like to—if I had an advisory board—have a regular check-in with that person, because they’re really interested in my company. And I know that they also could open a lot of doors, which is also probably the prime reason to have an advisory board, if they can open doors for you.

Laura Zander:
But do they have to be on a board for you to do that? As opposed to you just checking in with them once a month?

Liz Picarazzi:
I think that that is correct, that I would rather just have a check in like once a month, or even nicer, take them to lunch. I think that would be a lot less time for everybody: for me, for them. So that’s actually kind of an interesting idea, because then I can also look forward to having lunch once a week that I would expense to the business. And I would make sure to choose some lovely places—not necessarily expensive, but that I would like to have lunch at. [Laughter]

Sarah Segal:
That’s really smart.

Laura Zander:
Well, and then you also can break up with people more easily. So if you’re not getting the kind of information [you want], or if you find that you’re not on the same page, you just don’t go to lunch again—as opposed to the formalities of, “Okay, now I don’t want you on the advisory board anymore,” and blah, blah, blah. It just seems easier.

Sarah Segal:
It seems like it’s a way to dip your toe in the water without committing, like Laura suggested. If there’s a rush, you’ve gotta tell us, there’s a rush. But if there’s not a rush, take your time and have these lunches and figure out who you really want to keep having lunch with. And then next year, go, “All right, those are the five people that have really provided sage advice. I want to put them all in a room.”

Laura Zander:
Yep. Love that.

Liz Picarazzi:
Wow. You guys have really helped me work through this.

Loren Feldman:
You know, this topic did come up on the podcast fairly early on. I think it was Stephanie Stuckey who raised it. She had experience in the nonprofit world, and was used to running organizations that had boards. And when she bought back the family business, she immediately thought about creating a board there. And Jay was a little bit skeptical, as you might expect. He was skeptical about whether you could find people who could really help you for the price that you could afford to pay. And I think that’s probably a legitimate issue.

Sarah Segal:
So let’s just start a dating app for businesses. [Laughter]

Laura Zander:
Oh, that’s brilliant.

Loren Feldman:
You know, there are services that help companies do this. I’m familiar with one. There’s an organization in Ohio called Aileron that’s a really unusual organization. They provide a service where they have a database of potential board people and they connect owner-operators with potential board members and help with the whole process of creating a board.

Sarah Segal:
But even something non-formal, where it’s like, “Hey, I work in this region, and I’m always interested in meeting with like-minded business owners. And let’s go on a date—a business date.”

Loren Feldman:
The other way to do that is with a business group. Liz, you’re a member of EO. Do you think of your EO group as something of a board of advisors?

Liz Picarazzi:
I definitely do. I mean, I meet with the same eight people every month for five to six hours. So they all know me very well, meaning we talk about both business and personal [life]. But for some of the stuff I’m working on, they would not be able to provide the subject-matter expertise or experience on enough of them.

But I mean, I bounce stuff off of them all the time. In fact, next month, I’m giving a presentation about impostor syndrome, actually, and how I’m feeling it a lot. And I know I’m going to be very vulnerable. I’m going to be talking to seven of my business peers about this and where it’s showing up. And then, you know, they’re going to be giving experience shares about how they’ve experienced it. So yeah, I view them as a board of, maybe not necessarily advisors, but a board of supporters.

Sarah Segal:
So EO is similar to Vistage, but it’s for entrepreneurs, correct?

Liz Picarazzi:
Yes. The biggest difference is that Vistage actually has a paid facilitator and a structure. Whereas EO is totally self-run. So we all get trained in the way to have conversations, trained on coaching, trained on the Gestalt method, where you’re not offering advice; you’re only offering experiences. So yeah, there are a lot of similarities, I think, in the role that that group can play in your business-emotional life.

Loren Feldman:
Sarah, you’ve given some thought to joining a Vistage group, haven’t you?

Sarah Segal:
Yeah, and I had a conversation with a moderator—I don’t know if they’re called moderator or group leader—she’s starting a group—

Loren Feldman:
Facilitator.

Sarah Segal:
A facilitator. Thank you. And it was an okay conversation, but there were a couple of things that turned me off immediately. And I was honest with her. Like, she told me that she was working on putting together a group of only women business owners. And as a woman business owner, I don’t want to be part of a women-only business owner group. I want to play in the same sandbox as everybody. So I was clear about that. And so I’m still kind of having conversations with her. She’s super nice. I don’t know that this is going to be the right thing for me in particular. But I’m happy to continue to explore it.

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