--- title: The Change the Game Podcast | Entrepreneur (2) description: Entrepreneur | The Change the Game Podcast for The Great Game of Business (2) --- [![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2020/Home/GGOB%20logo%20(1).png) ](https://www.greatgame.com/) - What Do We Do? ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [What We Do](https://www.greatgame.com/what-is-great-game-business) - [Who We Are](https://www.greatgame.com/about-great-game-business) - [Our Process](https://www.greatgame.com/about/our-process) - [Meet The Team](https://www.greatgame.com/meet-the-team) - [Why Choose Great Game?](https://www.greatgame.com/why-choose-great-game) - Resources ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Free Tools](https://www.greatgame.com/diy-resources) - [Great Game GO](https://www.greatgame.com/community) - [Blog](https://www.greatgame.com/blog) - [Podcast](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast) - [Bonus Plan Design](https://www.greatgame.com/bonus-plan-design) - [Books](https://www.greatgame.com/books/3books) - [Videos](https://www.greatgame.com/videos) - [Testimonials and Case Studies](https://www.greatgame.com/case-studies/industry-display) - Events ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Great Game® Conference](https://www.greatgame.com/conference-2026) - [Discover the Game: Free Intro](https://www.greatgame.com/introductory-workshop) - [Great Game® Experience Workshop](https://www.greatgame.com/great-game-experience-workshop) - [Leading the Game Cohort](https://www.greatgame.com/leading-the-game) - [See All Events](https://www.greatgame.com/event-dates) - Coaching ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Get A Coach](https://www.greatgame.com/coaching) - [Meet the Coaches](https://www.greatgame.com/meet-the-coaches) - [Training](https://www.greatgame.com/trainings) ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/HamMenuBlack.png) ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/CloseButton.png) - What Do We Do? ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [What We Do](https://www.greatgame.com/what-is-great-game-business) - [Who We Are](https://www.greatgame.com/about-great-game-business) - [Our Process](https://www.greatgame.com/about/our-process) - [Meet The Team](https://www.greatgame.com/meet-the-team) - [Why Choose Great Game?](https://www.greatgame.com/why-choose-great-game) - Resources ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Free Tools](https://www.greatgame.com/diy-resources) - [Great Game GO](https://www.greatgame.com/community) - [Blog](https://www.greatgame.com/blog) - [Podcast](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast) - [Bonus Plan Design](https://www.greatgame.com/bonus-plan-design) - [Books](https://www.greatgame.com/books/3books) - [Videos](https://www.greatgame.com/videos) - [Testimonials and Case Studies](https://www.greatgame.com/case-studies/industry-display) - Events ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Great Game® Conference](https://www.greatgame.com/conference-2026) - [Discover the Game: Free Intro](https://www.greatgame.com/introductory-workshop) - [Great Game® Experience Workshop](https://www.greatgame.com/great-game-experience-workshop) - [Leading the Game Cohort](https://www.greatgame.com/leading-the-game) - [See All Events](https://www.greatgame.com/event-dates) - Coaching ![](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/Templates-2021/DownArrowBlueLarger.svg) - [Get A Coach](https://www.greatgame.com/coaching) - [Meet the Coaches](https://www.greatgame.com/meet-the-coaches) - [Training ](https://www.greatgame.com/trainings) - [Community Membership](https://www.greatgame.com/membership-purchase) - [Store](https://ggob.myshopify.com/) - [FAQ](https://www.greatgame.com/faqs) - [Become a Coach](https://www.greatgame.com/internal-coach) - [Have Us Speak at Your Event](https://www.greatgame.com/ggobspeakers) - [Trusted Partners](https://www.greatgame.com/trusted-partners) - [Search](https://www.greatgame.com/site-search) ## **![GGOB + 21 Hats-1](https://www.greatgame.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GGOB%20+%2021%20Hats-1.png?width=250&height=81&name=GGOB%20+%2021%20Hats-1.png) **   ## **About Our Podcasts** Podcasts for entrepreneurs, business owners, and leaders. These messages are brought to you directly from CEOs and business thinkers to help build healthier companies, better businesses, and better lives for both you and your employees.   ## [You're in the Valley of Death](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/episode130) ![Loren Feldman](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/LF.jpg) ***Introduction:*** This week, Shawn Busse, Jay Goltz, and Jennifer Kerhin talk about that difficult transition most growing businesses endure when the owner can no longer handle all of the most important tasks herself but also can’t quite afford to hire the people she needs to lighten her load. It’s part of the reason Jennifer, as she’s told us in previous episodes, has been working 12-hour days, six days a week. It’s a challenging transition, and it has a name: It’s the “valley of death,” says Shawn, who compares it to crossing a desert. We also discuss how big the owners want their businesses to get, why important tools and processes seem to break with every $500,000 of revenue growth, and what constitutes the proper care and feeding of salespeople. Plus: Jay has an idea for owners who are having a hard time selling their businesses. The idea involves selling the business to a key employee in a transaction Jay is calling a WE-SOP. Get it? It’s kind of like an ESOP, but it’s a lease-to-own version of an ESOP. A WE-SOP. **— Loren Feldman** ## [Not Sold on ESOPs? There's A New Alternative](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/episode123) ![Loren Feldman](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/LF.jpg) ***Introduction:*** This week, two special guests who have built highly successful companies talk about what they ultimately plan to do with those companies. Ari Weinzweig is co-founder of Zingerman’s Community of Businesses, a collection of mostly food-related companies that are an iconic part of Ann Arbor, Michigan. Brad Herrmann is co-founder of Text-Em-All, a software firm based near Dallas that helps organizations deliver personalized, informational, and emergency messages by text and by phone. Both Zingerman’s and Text-Em-All consider themselves purpose-driven. Both practice open-book management. And so, not surprisingly, the founders of both companies took a hard look at selling to an employee stock ownership plan, or ESOP, in the hope that the cultures they’ve created might live on. But both companies, independently, soured on the notion of creating an ESOP, one after spending more than $200,000 and coming within a week of closing the deal. And now, both have settled on a little known alternative, what’s called a perpetual purpose trust. So far, only a handful of companies have tried to create a purpose trust for this purpose, but Zingerman’s and Text-Em-All are taking the leap. As both Ari and Brad acknowledge, they’re kind of figuring it out as they go. **— Loren Feldman** ### [Marketing Workshop - May 18, 2023](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/episode122) ## [I Didn't Know It Was Going To Work](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/episode122) ![Loren Feldman](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/LF.jpg) ***Introduction:*** This week, Shawn Busse and Loren Feldman talk to John Garrett about his contrarian approach to newspapers, marketing, and competition. Garrett has built a Texas-based chain of print newspapers that has managed to outcompete established news organizations and digital platforms for both community engagement and local advertising. Not surprisingly, when he first took out a $39,000 credit card loan in 2005 and started telling people that his business model would feature a monthly print publication that he would mail to everyone in his target communities for free, he didn’t get a lot of congratulations. And not everything he’s tried has worked. An expansion into Arizona, Tennessee, and Georgia, for example, failed early in the pandemic. But almost 20 years after its debut, a period during which most local publications have been in retreat, Community Impact is thriving. And from his seat as a publisher, Garrett offers a perspective on marketing that any business owner would be wise to consider. **— Loren Feldman** ## [I'm Not A Real CEO](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/episode121) ![Loren Feldman](https://www.greatgame.com/hubfs/LF.jpg) ***Introduction:*** This week, Jay Goltz, Liz Picarazzi, and Sarah Segal talk about the inherent conflicts between being an entrepreneur and being a CEO—and the different skill-sets each role requires. Does it make sense for the same person to do both jobs? Is being CEO even a full-time job? And when does it make sense to replace yourself as CEO? Liz says she’s thought about it. Jay, not so much: “Could I have found somebody 10, 15, 20 years ago who was a better manager? Sure. But it just wasn’t worth it.” Why not? “It’s gonna cost you $250,000 a year,” Jay says. “Is it worth paying that?” Plus: Liz and Sarah talk about positioning a company to be acquired. And Sarah proposes a PR campaign for Liz’s package bins right on the spot. [Previous](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/tag/entrepreneur/page/1) [All posts](https://www.greatgame.com/podcast/all) ## About The Podcast ![GGOB + 21 Hats-1](https://www.greatgame.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GGOB%20+%2021%20Hats-1.png?width=400&height=129&name=GGOB%20+%2021%20Hats-1.png) The Great Game of Business has partnered with [21 Hats](https://21hats.com/) to bring the 21 Hats Podcast to all entrepreneurs in The Great Game of Business community! Hosted by Loren Feldman, this podcast offers real-world business insight. Tune in to stay up to date on today's business issues, hear real stories about organizational challenges leaders are facing, and take away strategies CEOs are using in the business world today. When you subscribe, you'll receive a weekly email notification of this podcast. Plus, receive a message any time a new podcast episode is published on The Great Game of Business "Change the Game Podcast."   **Subscribe to Get notified about new episodes from 21 Hats and the Change the Game Podcasts!** [![GGOB Logo Footer](https://www.greatgame.com/hs-fs/hubfs/Templates-2018/Home/temp/GGOB_Logo_Footer.png?width=465&name=GGOB_Logo_Footer.png "GGOB Logo Footer")](https://www.greatgame.com/) [Terms of Use](https://www.greatgame.com/terms) | [Privacy Policy](https://www.greatgame.com/privacy-policy)  Cookie Settings All trademarks, trade names or logos mentioned or used herein are the property of their respective owners.  Reference to any product or service by manufacturer, trade name, trademark or otherwise does not reflect any affiliation with the manufacturer or its endorsement of the products or services.  |  COPYRIGHT © 2026 THE GREAT GAME OF BUSINESS, INC.  All rights reserved. For over 40 years, The Great Game of Business™ has helped organizations reach their highest potential and value. Tapping into the universal human need to win, GGOB educates your people in the rules of business, rallies them around a common goal, empowers them to see and improve the score, and engages them by giving them a stake in the outcome. #### Quick Links #### The Great Game of Business 2401 E. Sunshine St. Springfield, MO 65804 [800.386.2752](tel:18003862752) [info@ggob.com](mailto:info@ggob.com) [**](https://www.facebook.com/greatgameofbusiness/) [**](https://twitter.com/Gr8GameBusiness) [**](https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-great-game-of-business/) [**](https://www.youtube.com/user/GreatGameofBusiness) [**](https://www.instagram.com/thegreatgameofbusiness/) ![](https://www.facebook.com/tr?id=263477480705198&ev=PageView&noscript=1) ![](https://px.ads.linkedin.com/collect/?pid=2040065&fmt=gif)